tevere: Jihae, solemn with hint of smile (sunshine)Ineke ([personal profile] tevere) wrote,
@ 2010-01-02 12:40 pm UTC
Entry tags:being chinese, inspector chen, my fiction, yuletide
Currently back in Saigon after a few days in central Vietnam-- more on that later!

So, for Yuletide this year I wrote a story for Liz Williams' Inspector Chen series: This Sweet and Bitter Orange Mood, which is about Inari finding her way home. I want to give special thanks to [livejournal.com profile] the_grynne for her super-speedy help and beta services, and to [livejournal.com profile] bantha_fodder for reading my initial draft and pointing me in the right direction!

I don't think the series is that well-known, and the only place I've ever seen any of the books in a bookshop is in New Zealand-- I had to resort to Amazon to buy the first in the series, 'Snake Agent'. The premise is fabulous: a world in which the Heaven and Hell of traditional Chinese belief are real, their demons and deities coexisting with the human world. Inspector Chen Wei forms a reluctant (and mildly slashy) partnership with his counterpart from Hell's Vice Division, Zhu Irzh, to solve supernatural mysteries and occasionally rescue Chen's demon wife, Inari, from Hell's clutches.

That said-- with no criticism intended of my Yuletide recipient, or of other fans of the series (including those who left wonderful, thoughtful feedback on my story), I have to say: as a mixed-race member of the Chinese diaspora, I find the series deeply, deeply frustrating. Don't get me wrong: I love the idea of fiction based on Chinese mythology, traditional beliefs and religion-- it's what made me hunt down the series in the first place and start reading with such glee. Fantasy novels! Set in Asia! About Chinese people!

...Except, as it turns out, not so much about Chinese people. I mean, I get it: it's hard to write characters from a culture you're not familiar with. But what really hurts me-- what makes me boggle-- is the fact that while the author has freely borrowed from Chinese myths and beliefs and religion (and again: fine with that!), she has clearly chosen not to make the effort to write characters who think, act, or even live in the same physical and cultural environment as actual Chinese people.

It hurts me, and it makes me angry, that when writing about us an author can so thoughtlessly overwrite our food and replace it with her own (kale, chocolate, chowder); who can replace our cultural and pop-culture references with her own (repeated references to dated American TV shows-- to the exclusion of any references to Asian literature or media); our language with her own (characters explicitly searching for and using Western proverbs and sayings, when Chinese equivalents exist); our names with those of her own creation (why use keymash constructions when Chinese demons traditionally have Chinese names, e.g. Yan Luo, Meng Po); who can randomly insert elements from other Asian cultures into a supposedly Chinese narrative (why does Zhu carry a katana rather than a jian?); who replaces our own bureaucracies with foreign structures and concepts (SWAT units, guilds, Seneschal, American police ranks e.g. Captain Su Sung); and who blithely makes statements that are just factually wrong and/or culturally inappropriate (Chen telling Ma that Hell is called the Yellow Springs because it's named after an actual yellow spring; "Little Pearl Tang, trussed like a sacrificial chicken"; "The thought of Tang's freedom chafed him like a yak-hair shirt").

Perhaps, with the feelings I have towards the canon, I shouldn't have offered this fandom in the first place. But at the same time-- isn't fanfiction the chance to at least try and make some things right again? I hope my Yuletide recipient enjoyed the story anyway, regardless of why I chose to write it.

If you are a fan of the series, or read it in the future, please just be aware that while it is a story about Asian characters (which is always fabulous to see in fiction, especially fantasy and sci-fi), those characters are seen very much through a white, Western, American lens. [ETA: Apparently she's British, which makes the constant Americanisms perplexing as well as infuriating.]

If you like Chinese tales of the supernatural, I love Pu Songling's classic Strange Tales from a Chinese Studio. These tiny old-school stories are touching, perverse, instructional, and often have a surprisingly frank eroticism-- two of my favourites are the tale of a relationship between a young male fox-spirit and a human scholar, and a delightful and tender threesome story about a man who accidentally marries both a ghost and a fox-girl.

If you like Chinese crime series, I like Qiu Xiaolong's Inspector Chen series (yes, confusing; there are two Inspector Chens). These are smart, political crime novels set in Shanghai, and Qiu's modern verse translations of Tang and Song dynasty poems (scattered throughout) are wonderful. [ETA: [personal profile] bravecows also thinks The Eye of Jade by Diane Wei Liang looks good.]

ETA: For YA fantasy based on Chinese myths and legends, [personal profile] jonquil recommends Silver Phoenix by Cindy Pon, and [personal profile] holyschist recommends Laurence Yep's Dragon of the Lost Sea series. [personal profile] jhameia recommends giving A Banquet for Hungry Ghosts by Ying Chang Compestine a try, if you don't mind some horror and gore, and [personal profile] starlady says she loves Where the Mountain Meets the Moon by Grace Lin (for the somewhat younger crowd).

Happy new year!


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frangipani: an open book against a flowery background (don't close the door on what you adore)


[personal profile] frangipani
2010-01-02 08:25 am UTC (link)
I believe that Liz Williams is British, but your point stands.

I read the first book in the series, I don't know whether to continue reading. I share your frustration re: her Inspector Chen series, though mine stemmed from how the novels' setting doesn't feel anything like the Singapore I know. I get that Singapore Three is a franchise city, but why keep the Southeast Asian locale and name if she's going to erase everything else about it that makes it Singapore? It's a bit disturbing, reading about a Singapore without -- at the very least -- Malay, Indian and Eurasian population, especially knowing the unspoken race politics there that belie formal meritocracy.

"Snake Agent" became rather less enjoyable (though I did finish it) upon realising exactly what you point out: it's a story about Asian characters seen through white lens. Williams' writing is quite elegant and accomplished, but... I can't help but think of that throwaway line where girls from Malaysia were apparently signing up to be human components of a technology to pay for their dowry. I think I burst out laughing at that point, because-- well, which community? If she was referring to the Chinese custom of bride dowry, it's practiced rather differently in Malaysia (e.g. spending the cash betrothal gift from the groom instead to purchase accessories etc.). In real life, her Malaysian girls would be more likely to be doing it to pay for fees of better universities, or -- if she'd wanted to keep the marriage cost angle -- young working-class Malay Muslim men who have to pay the bride's family what's called the "mas kahwin" -- lit., "wedding gold", or bride price.

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tevere: Jihae, solemn with hint of smile (sunshine)


[personal profile] tevere
2010-01-02 09:59 am UTC (link)
Huh, she's British? I did just assume American, because of inclusions like kale, miles, SWAT teams (I think they even drive on the right at one point??)... I would've assumed a Brit would've done so much better than she actually did, given the region's history of British colonialism!

I was also disconcerted by the use of the name 'Singapore' when the city in question is clearly not Singapore. I think I would've found it less so if she'd at least tried to explain the franchising system. But instead there's this confused mash of Singapore Three being, well, a franchise of Singapore-- but also a part of the PRC? And at the same time, the Cantonese-speaking element and the physical description is more like Hong Kong. It reads less like 'cool worldbuilding of a future Asian city' and more like 'Asian cities are same-same-but-different so I may as well just mash them together for maximum exotic effect'.

In the second in the series (which I actually read first), there are Malay and Indian characters-- although the depiction of these is seriously problematic, too.

I found that part about Malaysian girls selling themselves a classic example of why this series is so frustrating: it's an interesting idea, just so poorly executed that it's completely wasted! (The lack of understanding and specificity, like you say, is key-- which Malaysians?) It could have been a great jumping-off point to acknowledge and examine the race and power dynamics of South-East Asia, including human trafficking (and even the legal flow of domestic workers) from poorer countries to Malaysia, Hong Kong and Singapore.

There were broader things I found troubling about 'Snake Agent', too. Chen's pleasure in the moments that Inari looks 'almost' human; his dismissal of her actions as merely a consequence of 'her nature' and her lack of (human) education. It's like James Cameron commenting that in order to avoid a racist story, he deliberately told the story of blue aliens rather than two human societies. Just because Inari's a demon, doesn't mean that patronising and racist comments about her aren't, well, patronising and racist. But instead the author makes it clear we're meant to read Chen's comments as those of a caring husband who's the hero of the story...

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(no subject) - [personal profile] frangipani, 2010-01-02 11:43 am UTC (Expand)
Unholy Crap PS! - [personal profile] willow, 2010-01-03 11:42 am UTC (Expand)
Doing some digging - [personal profile] frangipani, 2010-01-03 06:24 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Doing some digging - [personal profile] willow, 2010-01-03 11:19 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Doing some digging - [personal profile] tevere, 2010-01-08 05:09 am UTC (Expand)
Re: Doing some digging - [personal profile] tevere, 2010-01-08 05:11 am UTC (Expand)
marina: (mulan)


[personal profile] marina
2010-01-02 09:59 am UTC (link)
Except, as it turns out, not so much about Chinese people.
Oi, that sounds pretty horrible :( I'm sorry.

The story of the male fox spirit is also one of my favorite Pu Songling stories! I don't remember if I've read the ghost and the fox spirit one, but I will certainly try to hunt it down. You make me want to check that book out of the library again.

Last edited 2010-01-02 10:01 am UTC (spelling fail)

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tevere: Jihae, solemn with hint of smile (sunshine)


[personal profile] tevere
2010-01-02 10:01 am UTC (link)
I totally want to request something from Pu Songling for Yuletide next year! Wouldn't it be awesome?

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(no subject) - [personal profile] marina, 2010-01-02 10:04 am UTC (Expand)
wcynic: (Lorelai)


[personal profile] wcynic
2010-01-02 02:32 pm UTC (link)
Here via [personal profile] anenko.

Okay, wow, I'm already annoyed by this series just from your review, but I kind of want to check it out just to be righteously indignant.

randomly insert elements from other Asian cultures into a supposedly Chinese narrative (why does Zhu carry a katana rather than a jian?

I think this angers me the most, because it reinforces the belief that all Asians are the same. I'm similarly irritated whenever someone refers to Chinese characters as kanji, because they're not the same thing.

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tevere: Jihae, solemn with hint of smile (sunshine)


[personal profile] tevere
2010-01-04 12:27 pm UTC (link)
There's the possibility I'm being slightly too harsh on the author-- apparently there maybe be British and American editions, with the American version being more full of fail! So perhaps worth checking out, depending on your location? (Although having the text 'Americanised' for better audience reach wouldn't have caused problems like katana for jian, for instance.)

In another thread above, there's also been a discussion of the problematic nature of entire geographical regions within Asia being confused and substituted for one another. Shanghai? not quite the same as Singapore, thanks.

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(no subject) - [personal profile] wcynic, 2010-01-04 02:22 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [personal profile] tevere, 2010-01-04 02:46 pm UTC (Expand)
willow: Red haired, dark skinned, lollipop girl (Raspberry: Willow)

Here Via Dark Agenda mention on someone's journal


[personal profile] willow
2010-01-03 11:23 am UTC (link)
I loved what I'd read of the series. Though I've only read two in them, haven't yet gotten around to looking up book three and my major complaint was 'Why is there sexing in the middle of my supernatural crime story'.

That said, I now want to re-read, because I. didn't. notice. the. lack. of. things.(and PEOPLE) Chinese.

And I don't know if that's because I'm not Chinese and my snippet knowledge of Chinese culture comes from a Caribbean point of view, liberally covered these days with an American lens/pov. Or if I was just so damn happy to find non-white characters to read, living in a city that wasn't on the East or West Coast of America, with an author who knew who the france Kwan Yin even is and where there are mentions of things like open air meat markets and tram-trollies and joss sticks and respecting one's ancestors alongside future tech and the supernatural.

Because as happy as I am about those things and about South Asian cultural mentions - the things you bring up are, well, BIG.

And yet, I don't remember SWAT showing up, though you've read the book far more recently so I trust your memory. And I don't remember seeing many non-Chinese, Non-South Asian names for non-white characters. And the bureaucracies of Hell reminded me of Kung Fu movies and certain anime (so maybe that should have been a sign?)

I hate the feeling that my desperate need for non-white works may have me/has had me unknowingly clinging to 'scraps'.

On the other hand, Liz Williams did stick her toe into 2009's Racefail very very briefly and seemed open to having things pointed out - whether that was true or just an impression, and is still true or is still the impression she'd like to give, I do not know. But if you wanted to ask 'Why' I think she might reply.

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spiralsheep: Sheep wearing an eyepatch (swanboat_icons Explain A Dragon)

Re: Here Via Dark Agenda mention on someone's journal (likewise)


[personal profile] spiralsheep
2010-01-03 11:59 am UTC (link)
(Disclaimer: I haven't read the Inspector Chen stories.)

I suspect you're onto something about differing British/Commonwealth and US editions (which Liz would have agreed to but, y'know, a non-bestselling British author versus US cultural dominance is rarely going to end well).

Liz Williams did stick her toe into 2009's Racefail very very briefly and seemed open to having things pointed out - whether that was true or just an impression, and is still true or is still the impression she'd like to give, I do not know.

IME Liz is one of the few white British sf authors who is open to actively considering race (as well as other issues) but, of course, like most authors she tends to be very sensitive about her creative work/source of income.

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(no subject) - [personal profile] willow, 2010-01-03 12:02 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [personal profile] spiralsheep, 2010-01-03 12:17 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [personal profile] tevere, 2010-01-04 09:37 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [personal profile] spiralsheep, 2010-01-04 08:53 pm UTC (Expand)
spiralsheep: Sheep wearing an eyepatch (swanboat_icons Explain A Dragon)

Note


[personal profile] spiralsheep
2010-01-03 02:05 pm UTC (link)
Hmm. You're right about the reviews but I can only find US editions of the novels listed even on British booksellers.

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tevere: Jihae, solemn with hint of smile (sunshine)

tl;dr


[personal profile] tevere
2010-01-04 09:34 am UTC (link)
As you mentioned in another thread, the possibility that there are two editions of the series -- one in which language has been explicitly Americanised -- raises a lot of interesting issues. Looking at the edition that I have, I would not hesitate to label it cultural appropriation, in the most pejorative sense of the term. But my feelings towards a British version might well be different.

The thing is-- I have no fundamental objection to the use of Chinese myths and beliefs by a non-Chinese author, as Williams has done in this series. As I said earlier, the use of Chinese myths, the South-East Asian locale and the Asian characters were the reason I initially sought the series out-- like you, I was eager to see a non-white, non-American world represented!

In my original post, I focused my critique mainly on the Americanisms -- which is a problem that could well disappear in the British edition. However, it's not my only issue with the novels. To break it down somewhat arbitrarily, the 'fail' in the books could be categorised as:

(a) Use of incorrect language and terminology, e.g. use of 'miles' for 'kilometres', 'rosary' for prayer beads, the American police ranks, etc. Noting that this could be specific to the American edition.

(b) Use of culturally inappropriate analogies and references. In my original post I noted the phrase, "chafing like a yak-hair shirt" as culturally inappropriate. Now, noting I'm no expert on this topic, it's my understanding that the concept of wearing a horse-hair shirt for penance is from the Western Christian (specifically Catholic) tradition. I remember that Lancelot wore one in the King Arthur stories! Changing "horse" to "yak" in an attempt to-- what, make it somehow appropriate to a Chinese setting? (NEWSFLASH: ancient China had horses!)-- is just so misguided that I could cry. Another example of cultural inappropriateness is the use of anorexia as a key point in one of the mysteries that Chen solves in 'Snake Agent'. Again, I don't claim to be an expert on anorexia in Asian societies. BUT, I believe it's a disease more prevalent in Western nations, and has become gradually more prevalent in Asia as Asian nations themselves Westernise (and adopt Western beauty ideals). While there are obviously Chinese anorexics, as a disease and/or a social phenomenon it is not viewed or perceived or interpreted the same in Asia as it is in the West. It is therefore inappropriate to expect it to be able to play the same role (and have the same cultural baggage) in an Asian narrative as it would in a Western one.

(c) A lack of understanding of how interpersonal relationships function between individuals in Chinese society. This is harder to pin down, and in fact I feel the 'wrongness' infuses the whole narrative: Chen's interactions with Inari, with Zhu, with his boss Su Song, etc. A concrete example could be the way Chen constantly ponders the matter of 'losing face' in front of Zhu. Face is an important concept in Chinese culture, for sure, and it informs decisions. But rather than 'face' being a concept that underpins and silently informs decisions, we instead have Chen very explicitly thinking about it-- as though it were a conscious strategy. It just reads as very clumsy and paint-by-numbers, rather than an integral part of the society they inhabit (and their own social consciousnesses). In a broader sense-- you can't borrow bits and pieces of a culture (e.g. the specific myths and beliefs) without also understanding how all those pieces fit together into a whole and inform individuals' conduct, morality, interpersonal relations and understanding of the world.

When I read the books, I felt that because (a) was lacking, I couldn't find it in myself to give Williams benefit of the doubt, i.e. that (b) and (c) were honest mistakes in a genuine attempt to write respectfully about my culture. If you can't be bothered to find out that most countries in South-East Asia use metric rather than imperial, then why should I trust you to have tried to understand anything else? If you can't be bothered to know that chocolate isn't a universal addiction, why should I not view your subsequent mistakes as cultural appropriation?

That said-- if the problems in (a) are due to an editing process that was outside her control, I find myself more inclined to forgive (c), at least. I still find (b) problematic, however. Having a character say (my paraphrase, as I don't have the book here), "As they say in the West, a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush" is ridiculous-- why would a Chinese character who does not speak English reach for an English phrase? Especially when there's a Chinese version (a bear holding a cob of corn reaches for another and drops the one it's holding).

And I don't remember seeing many non-Chinese, Non-South Asian names for non-white characters

I was specifically thinking of the demon names, here-- why not give Zhu Irzh and Inari proper Chinese names? There was also an explicitly-stated Malay character in the second book whose name was not at all Malay, IIRC. It sounded made-up. I understand it's the future-- but I feel it's problematic to set your narrative in South-East Asia and then blithely create new naming systems just for the hell of it. If you don't understand the basis for our names in the first place, how can you create futuristic versions of them?

And the bureaucracies of Hell reminded me of Kung Fu movies and certain anime (so maybe that should have been a sign?)

There's a lot of detail in the books, but again: I feel like Williams is using individual elements without understanding how they all fit together into a coherent whole that reflects a Chinese understanding of the world. The bureaucracy aspect, though, is fairly spot on (to my understanding). But pedantically, why are there ziggurats in Hell? Why is Zhu's rank an ancient French one? (Seneschal) Why are there (European-style) guilds? -- It's little things like that which just make me flinch, like the author is taking 'cool' things from a number of cultures and mashing them together for something new and exotic.

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Re: tl;dr - [personal profile] willow, 2010-01-04 10:14 am UTC (Expand)
Re: tl;dr - [personal profile] tevere, 2010-01-05 09:42 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [personal profile] frangipani, 2010-01-04 06:58 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [personal profile] tevere, 2010-01-05 10:11 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [personal profile] frangipani, 2010-01-05 02:36 pm UTC (Expand)
Semi Random Thought - [personal profile] willow, 2010-01-07 12:29 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [personal profile] altoclarinet, 2010-01-07 01:52 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [personal profile] tevere, 2010-01-07 03:26 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [personal profile] dhobikikutti, 2010-01-09 12:55 am UTC (Expand)
Re: tl;dr - [personal profile] altoclarinet, 2010-01-07 07:24 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: tl;dr - [personal profile] tevere, 2010-01-08 04:59 am UTC (Expand)
jonquil: (pimpernel)


[personal profile] jonquil
2010-01-03 05:12 pm UTC (link)
I'm so sorry. That sounds maddening.

You mentioned how hard it is to get American books. I took great pleasure in Cindy Pon's Silver Phoenix, which might take the taste out of your mouth. Cindy is a two-cultures child of Taiwanese parents, and it was such a treat to read a Chinese-legend fantasy written by somebody to whom the culture wasn't (spit) "exotic". Cindy also has a great love for food, which shows up in all the dishes.

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yiduiqie: (lion dancing)


[personal profile] yiduiqie
2010-01-04 12:49 am UTC (link)
Oh hey Tevere I have Silver Phoenix if you want to borrow it.

(It is a pretty awesome book)

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(no subject) - [personal profile] tevere, 2010-01-04 12:12 pm UTC (Expand)
tevere: Jihae, solemn with hint of smile (sunshine)


[personal profile] tevere
2010-01-04 12:11 pm UTC (link)
That sounds awesome (especially the food element, heh)-- and as [personal profile] yiduiqie and I will soon be hanging out in the same city, I'll have a copy at my fingertips. Thanks for the rec!

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jhameia: ME! (pic#387715)


[personal profile] jhameia
2010-01-03 06:04 pm UTC (link)
I recently received A Banquet of Hungry Ghosts by Ying Compestine. Can't read them yet because I'm a wuss, but Ying Compestine grew up in China and has been through the Cultural Revolution. (The table of contents reads like a menu, and there're also historical notes and recipes. Can't get much more made of win...)

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ithiliana: (Bofur!!)


[personal profile] ithiliana
2010-01-03 08:15 pm UTC (link)
Your post has been linked for inclusion in a Linkspam post.

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(no subject) - [personal profile] tevere, 2010-01-04 12:09 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [personal profile] ithiliana, 2010-01-03 08:19 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [personal profile] tevere, 2010-01-04 12:20 pm UTC (Expand)
ithiliana: (Bofur!!)


[personal profile] ithiliana
2010-01-03 08:20 pm UTC (link)
I'm sorry: my "link" announcement got made as a reply to a comment (I'm still learning my way around DW). Sorry for the error.

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norah: Monkey King, lookin' sly (monkeyking2)


[personal profile] norah
2010-01-04 04:52 am UTC (link)
Wow, that series sounded so awesome, until you got to the part with the culturefail. I'm not sure I could read past that. I'm tempted to try, but ugh!

Maybe I will try the OTHER inspector Chen.

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tevere: Jihae, solemn with hint of smile (sunshine)


[personal profile] tevere
2010-01-04 12:09 pm UTC (link)
It's such a great premise! Which is why it was interesting to tackle through fanfiction, although the inconsistencies in the worldbuilding (especially wrt geography and politics) drove me nuts. In the end I just ignored the source entirely, ha.

Someone above has recommended Silver Phoenix by Cindy Pon, which is apparently also Chinese-legend fantasy-- might be worth a look?

The other Inspector Chen is great for looking at lower-middle-class life in China, and how politics pervades almost every aspect of the functioning of the bureaucracy. I'm not a massive fan of mysteries (and this one didn't change my mind), but I do like the style and the characters.

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(no subject) - [personal profile] willow, 2010-01-07 12:12 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [personal profile] tevere, 2010-01-07 04:11 am UTC (Expand)
bravecows: Woman in stripey socks sitting on a stack of books (stock: i like books)

here via deepad


[personal profile] bravecows
2010-01-06 01:57 pm UTC (link)
Hah! I hated that book! To be honest I couldn't finish it because I found the style unbearably dry, but the unnecessary pasting of SEAsian names and Chinese cultural elements onto an extremely unSEAsian, unChinese world would have annoyed me even if the prose had been wonderful. Why call somewhere Singapore Three if you are just going to write it as your idea of Generic Chinese City? Or even Shanghai Three. As if all Chinese-majority cities are the same (imagine trying to lump Singapore, Hong Kong and Beijing together!).

Speaking of Chinese detective novels, I recently picked up The Eye of Jade by Diane Wei Liang, which is about a female detective in Beijing. I haven't read it yet, but the author was born and grew up in China. It looks pretty good!

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tevere: Jihae, solemn with hint of smile (sunshine)

Re: here via deepad


[personal profile] tevere
2010-01-07 04:00 am UTC (link)
The second book, which I read first, nearly made me want to hurl it across the room at certain points. It just felt so incoherent (I don't think the first book was even as bad)-- all these bits and pieces from various Asian cultures smashed in together. I'd see familiar things placed in a context that just didn't make sense, and it made me feel uncomfortable and angry and unable to focus on the narrative.

(I agree that the writing wasn't my cup of tea, but-- I've put up with worse from books that didn't piss me off in other regards.)

I think the franchise element had the potential to be used cleverly-- IF the worldbuilding was done in such a way to give recognition to the racial, cultural and political dynamics of East and South-East Asia. But as it was, the name was Pastede On Yay without any explanation-- and elements of Singapore Three as described were often so flat-out contradictory from one page to the next that it even made it impossible for me to try and create a plausible backstory for how Singapore Three might have come to exist in the form and shape described by the author (and believe me, I tried-- my original idea for Yuletide was a story more broadly about the city, but it just Did Not Work).

Thanks for the rec-- will check it out when I next hit a bookstore!

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holyschist: Image of a medieval crocodile from Herodotus, eating a person, with the caption "om nom nom" (paleontology, science)


[personal profile] holyschist
2010-01-07 01:33 am UTC (link)
I'd also recommend Laurence Yep's Dragon of the Lost Sea and sequels for Chinese-legend-based YA fantasy. It's older, but very good!

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tevere: Jihae, solemn with hint of smile (sunshine)


[personal profile] tevere
2010-01-07 03:49 am UTC (link)
Thanks for the recommendation! I'll definitely look them up.

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lacewood: (city sings your song)


[personal profile] lacewood
2010-01-07 06:13 am UTC (link)
Pointed here by [personal profile] bravecows to comment that I've read the first two books, and have the third half read. I'm a Singaporean who first got interested because omg! They were set in a city called Singapore 3!

And I do find the series genuinely interesting and entertaining, but even setting aside the issues you raised, the worldbuilding alone drives me up the wall. I could totally see my government franchising us out if they thought they could get away with it (and to a certain extent, they've tried to, in a way), but how does it work? Where is the city located? Why are the names so STRANGE? The Emperor of Heaven's son should not be called Mhara of all things. I've tried to put some of it down to maybe a mess in the information available on Asia (eg. Wade-Giles romanisation vs hanyu pinyin) but even so. And the city itself sounds less like modern Asia, and more like someone had taken Hong Kong from say, the 60's and transposed it to an indeterminate future. (A Hong Kong-Canadian friend who read it thought it sounded more like Shanghai)

But anyway, random ranting aside, it's great to see discussion about the books around, and now I really want to check out the Qiu Xiaolong series. XD

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tevere: Jihae, solemn with hint of smile (sunshine)


[personal profile] tevere
2010-01-07 10:18 am UTC (link)
Oh man, where did you manage to find the books? I looked in Kinokuniya AND Borders AND all sorts of little bookstores in Singapore, and couldn't find them anywhere. I had to pay through the nose for Amazon shipping, woe!

but how does it work? Where is the city located? Why are the names so STRANGE?

OMG I KNOW RIGHT. As I said to [personal profile] bravecows above, I think the idea of a Singapore franchise of future cities could have been really interesting-- but the worldbuilding was just so sloppy and incoherent and piecemeal that it didn't make a shred of sense. So Singapore Three is a Singapore franchise that's administratively a part of the PRC, but appears to have a bureaucracy that more resembles that of Hong Kong. The population speaks Cantonese and the city's located somewhere on the South China Sea, but at the same time it's "several thousand miles" north of Myanmar (i.e. definitively out of any Cantonese-speaking zone in China. And since even Nanjing is apparently only 1800 miles from Yangon, is there anywhere even in China that's, say, 3000 miles from Myanmar??). The ethnic makeup of the population, however, seems to mirror more closely that of Singapore, with a substantial Indian population, Malaysian immigrant workers and Malaysian media. WTF?

It's interesting that you say it reminds you of 60s Hong Kong, because when I went to write my Yuletide story I had to decide, well, where to set the damn thing (as canon wasn't exactly a great help in that regard). I eventually settled on... 1960s Hong Kong *laugh*. It's also interesting your friend said it was reminiscent of Shanghai, since in discussions elsewhere in this post people have mentioned seeing editions where Singapore Three is called Shanghai Three. (Because Singapore and Shanghai are, like, totally interchangeable and everything!)

Last edited 2010-01-07 10:29 am UTC (for clarification)

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(no subject) - [personal profile] lacewood, 2010-01-07 12:25 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [personal profile] tevere, 2010-01-07 01:54 pm UTC (Expand)
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linkspam_mod: A metal chain (chain)


[personal profile] linkspam_mod
2010-01-10 09:09 pm UTC (link)
This post has been added to a linkspam round up..

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starlady: Kermit the Frog, at Yuletide (yuletide)


[personal profile] starlady
2010-01-11 01:05 am UTC (link)
Thanks for the post. I will definitely be checking out the other Inspector Chen.

And while it's definitely a middle-grade kids' book, I can't recommend Where the Mountain Meets the Moon by Grace Lin highly enough. It's a children's fantasy based on Chinese folktales illustrated by the author, and utterly charming.

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tevere: Jihae, solemn with hint of smile (sunshine)


[personal profile] tevere
2010-01-11 09:37 am UTC (link)
Man, I wish I had more primary school age kids around I could gift with awesome illustrated books! I'm totally going to hunt down a copy anyway; if I can't find a kid to appreciate it, what's to stop me from keeping it for myself? *g*

Thanks for the rec, and I hope you enjoy the other Inspector Chen! Not perfect, of course, but I learnt a lot from the books and enjoyed them quite a bit (even though crime isn't even my thing).

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cyphomandra: fractured brooding landscape (McCahon)


[personal profile] cyphomandra
2010-01-11 09:44 am UTC (link)
I loved Snake Agent, but found the subsequent books disappointing - mostly because they had much less Chen, but also because I seemed to be getting dragged through a hotch-potch of cultures and references in the service of a complete deconstruction/rebuild of Heaven and Hell (going off memories of book three), and losing the focus (plot, character, world) that the first book had. Also, I wanted more detecting, so thanks for the recommendation of the other Inspector Chen!

Twice now for Yuletide I've fallen a little out of love with my source by going over it so closely in preparation. I was disappointed, this year, to discover that the two nonwhite characters in the source I was using are the only ones in their workplace habitually addressed by first, rather than last name; a small but disconcerting detail.

(and I really liked the world of your story, and all the intersecting perspectives)

world works, and where the gaps are.

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tevere: Jihae, solemn with hint of smile (sunshine)


[personal profile] tevere
2010-01-12 12:10 pm UTC (link)
The other Inspector Chen has plenty of detecting! Also lots of poetry and domestic politics, which is always an interesting combination. I hope you like them!

Re: Liz Williams, I did like the first book better than the second (which I read first, as it was the only one I could find at the time). The first one was definitely more cohesive-- the second one, like you said, felt like a hodge-podge hot mess. I haven't read it in a year (I remember I was reading it exactly last Yuletide, while on holiday in New Zealand) so I don't remember the details, but it just felt... overstuffed. Incoherent and random, and by the end it just didn't even feel like it was even pretending to be Chinese anymore. ("Hey! You know what would make this scene even cooler? FLESH-EATING DOGMEN.")

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kaigou: (4 vortex of stupidity)


[personal profile] kaigou
2010-01-21 05:14 am UTC (link)
(I think this was linked via someone on my dwircle, but I've had the post open all day while doing other stuff, and now I can't even recall. So, err, meant to give credit but...)

I read the first two stories, after reading one of Williams' other stories, Nine Layers of Sky, which reads like a peculiarly bleak and morbid mashup of Joseph Campbell and Mikhail Bulgakov done through a post-Soviet lens. That book was far denser in terms of references, but here and there I could see an editor's hands: miles for kilometres, that kind of thing. I was willing to give the Inspector Chen novels a try, in part because I'm almost positive I heard/read that Williams had lived in Southeast Asia for several years. (She doesn't mention it at all in her biography, though, so now I'm baffled, or maybe doing contract work in-and-out of a region is getting glossed past or something, but I could've sworn she mentioned it in an interview somewhere.)

I was willing to give a lot of leeway, I think, because I don't believe in underestimating the extent to which some editors insist on underestimating the American public -- hence why we get "miles" instead of "kilometers" and "rosary" instead of "prayer beads", because these editors are concerned our widdle American brains might explode if exposed to too many new concepts at once. And since the power of the editor can be almighty (especially if the author is looking at another well-received but not well-sold work like Nine Layers of Sky, which many amateur reviews seemed to consider "inaccessible")... I wouldn't be surprised at all if Williams got told she needed to cool it on using too much of the research goodness.

I mean, the only big-named concurrently-published Asian-themed SFF at the time (2005) was one series that tanked (Ox something), and IIRC, Alma Alexander's Secrets of Jin-Shei. Not counting Gibson's and Dick's bizarre amalgamations that brought us New Tokyo and New Shanghai and whatnot. It made sense to me, even reading, that some of the more obtuse Americanized parts were meant for we American cabbages, who would naturally (the editors had theorized) just refuse! point-blank! to read a book that didn't refer to us or cater to us in some way. The book just wouldn't sell otherwise!, they probably cried.

I mean, okay, so 99% of Western readers wouldn't know a dan dao or a jian if it bit them in the ass, but in that case, call it a sabre or a sword. Using katana felt like someone was waving a flag at me that said, "we called it this because of you cabbages who we know couldn't be expected to know any better." Same way I felt about the fact that the demon's named Zhu Irzh -- because I do know zhu is an archaic term for 'lord', but in that case it should come after the name, not before. Except that in romance-based languages, titles come first, so I can see someone flipping 'zhu' around to make it easier for the intended Western audience to more easily intuitively grasp that it's a title, not a name. Same way I've learned to grit my teeth and ignore the bizarre mix of pinyin and wade-giles. Some editors seem to think wade-giles 'looks' better or something... sometimes. They can't be arsed to realize that it's not like you can mix-and-match.

I admit that the comments like "as they say in the West" struck me, even when reading, as a wierd kind of privilege-nod, like the author was saying, "look, I know you can't be expected to read this entire book about a culture that has nothing to do with you and don't give a rat's ass about your needs, so here's a small bone so you feel like you're still on the top of the heap." Or something. It was odd, and did feel tacked-on compared to some of the other deft touches. The mangling of mythologies, that I was expecting, because she did similar in Nine Layers of Sky -- though there, I was more familiar with the original myths, so I could see where she'd flipped things. I admit was I was less familiar with South-Asian, so was going a bit blind on that part.

(I also wonder if the Shanghai 3 and Singapore 3 are again the work of A Concerned American Editor, because even when reading -- as someone who's never been to either place -- I couldn't seem to get the geography clear in my head. I'd read the city/geography description outloud, and the SO kept saying it sounded just like Hong Kong. Ironically, that would be Hong Kong in the sixties, when he lived there -- including mention of the hilly/rural areas just past the city, the bay, and a few other details I can't recall now.)

Knowing the culture and feeling the story's untruthfulness has got to be just as bad (in a different way) than not knowing the culture and sensing, on some level, that you're being denied the full potential richness because someone out there is convinced you're just too stupid to handle the whole picture. Okay, actually, neither are much enjoyable.

Also, the second book was a complete hodge-podge, and don't even get me started on the story's concluding cop-out of heteronormativity.

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tevere: Jihae, solemn with hint of smile (sunshine)


[personal profile] tevere
2010-01-23 01:37 am UTC (link)
This discussion has been particularly useful in illuminating -- for me, at least -- the degree to which editorial intervention can distort a text and create, or amplify, elements of race!fail. And separately to the Williams issue, it's made me more aware of the differences between, say, a Chinese author writing in English for an American audience (e.g. Qiu Xiaolong's Chief Inspector Chen series), and a Chinese author writing for a Chinese audience. And then you wonder how much of the Chinese author's writing in English was influenced by his American publisher, you know? There was an interesting post on LJ a while ago -- unfortunately I forget where -- which talked about the importance of not forgetting that even books by POC are filtered through a white publishing industry and its norms (and its beliefs of what its audience will accept). So the narratives by POC that we end up reading are sometimes, maybe even oftentimes, only the ones condoned by the industry as 'acceptably authentic'-- not necessarily 100% reflective of the POC lived experience.

I can see someone flipping 'zhu' around to make it easier for the intended Western audience to more easily intuitively grasp that it's a title, not a name.

Something that annoyed me about the series -- and perhaps this was the copyediting rather than authorial intent -- was the fact that characters' names get flipped around inconsistently even within the same book! So Inari calls Chen 'Chen Wei', but in other places people call him 'Wei Chen'-- sheesh. If you really believe that your Western audience needs to have the surname come last (which is problematic, but let's roll with it), at least make it the same throughout.

I don't inherently mind a 'mangling of mythologies', and in fact I (speaking for myself) very much welcome interpretations of our myths and legends in a SFF context! But I suppose what bugs me is that myths and legends need to be understood within the cultural context from which they arose. I feel like Williams produced a world in which these myths and legends and beliefs floated completely untethered from a society which could have plausibly produced them (and a society that remained influenced by them, since human and fantastical elements coexist in Singapore Three). As I'm sure you know, Chinese 'traditional beliefs' are sycretistic; there's a very complex layering of borrowed and indigenous elements, as well as the influence of processes by which beliefs shape society and are shaped by it in turn. I didn't feel, from these books, that Williams ever got that. I think she borrowed things -- demons and Heaven and Hell -- without understanding how those things are part of an organic and richly historical whole. Which is why, to me, the 'Chineseness' of the Inspector Chen series felt pasted on and inauthentic.

he SO kept saying it sounded just like Hong Kong. Ironically, that would be Hong Kong in the sixties, when he lived there

Ah, that's funny! Elsewhere in the comments we were discussing how Singapore Three felt very much like Hong Kong in the 1960s, rather than any plausible future vision of an Asian city. And the thing is, I do believe geography and history matter, even for SFF. The languages spoken, the bureaucratic and political systems, the ethnic makeup of the inhabitants of Singapore Three-- if all of that can't have plausibly arisen from today's cities and their colonial histories that made them what they are, are you using your white privilege to overwrite our histories and create an amalgamation of different real cities and cultures that somehow fits with your Western imagination of what 'Asia' (whatever that is) looks like?

[personal profile] naraht had a very interesting post that's relevant to this, I think: History Without Oppression.

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(no subject) - [personal profile] kaigou, 2010-01-23 03:23 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [personal profile] tevere, 2010-01-23 04:54 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [personal profile] kaigou, 2010-01-23 05:35 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [personal profile] tevere, 2010-01-23 06:11 am UTC (Expand)
denenkyuu: photo (c) denenkyuu (bee)


[personal profile] denenkyuu
2010-02-04 02:28 am UTC (link)
damn, and I was so invested in getting my hands on an urban fantasy that actually focuses on Asian themes D8 this is going off my to-read list immediately, I'd rather not let myself be frustrated

thank you for the warning, and the suggestions, I've heard of Silver Phoenix and Banquet for Hungry Ghosts, but the others I'll definitely check out!

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tevere: Jihae, solemn with hint of smile (sunshine)


[personal profile] tevere
2010-02-04 09:59 am UTC (link)
The best thing that came out of all this was everyone's great recommendations for good Asian fantasy! Hope you enjoy.

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idiothole: (kick. ass. die. young.)


[personal profile] idiothole
2010-12-17 03:28 pm UTC (link)
Was surfing through some random links via dark_agenda & came upon this post. The conversation's kind of already been said but you articulated stuff so well I kind of wanted to post to say - awesome post!

I read half of the first book after it was recommended to me for the mysteries and the slashiness. I'm a white girl, but even with just my vague familiarity with the culture, it kind of didn't gel for me. I feel like, even if you take the sort of futuristic approach to a society so that it's not Shanghai of today as people in Shanghai know it, you still have to make very researched approximations of how the people and their culture could've become the culture in your story. And I never got a sense of that being done.

It actually reminded me a bit of something I wrote back in the day when I was 16 or 17, which was a sci-fi story set in post-apocalyptic Poland, but the location was more or less random. I had the dynamics of the world thought through and I made the characters have Polish names but didn't really think about the process of how modern-day Poland might've descended into the society I was writing about. And that in retrospect was dumb - even if the story was sci-fi.

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tevere: Jihae, solemn with hint of smile (sunshine)


[personal profile] tevere
2010-12-18 08:11 am UTC (link)
Thanks for listening, even though it's an old conversation! What particularly struck me from this discussion was something I hadn't considered much before... Not just the author's lack of understanding, but the role of the publishers in exacerbating the cultural inappropriateness of many elements. You can particularly see it in the difference between editions. In the version you and some others read, the city is Shanghai Three... In the version I read, it's Singapore Three. Why change it? Did they think all Asian cities are interchangeable? Not consider that each has a distinct culture that would lead to a different future? And then there's the Americanisation of language, which just... sigh. I mean, I get it: it's hard to write other cultures. I know myself that the more I read, the more I realize I don't know, and the more hesitant I am to even start. Research, research, and actually talking to people from that culture, and getting race betas... I think that helps. Unfortunately, even in professional publishing, it seems more effort that some are willing to go to.

I know there's a Yuletide story in the works for these books this year, so fingers crossed it'll help remedy some of the failings of the canon.

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